What is the general opinion about horns?
I do like the look of a fully horned Dexter, but my reservations are:
1. Safety; Have many people been injured by horns? Do Dexters use their horns against humans?
2. Do horns decrease the value of an animal?
Peter Thornton
Horns - Horns
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Paula Edwards
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Hi Peter,
I agree wholeheartedly that a Dexter with a full set of horns is a magnificent sight, however, I share your reservations about safety for yourself and other animals when dealing with a horned cow.
Consequently, we have been breeding polled Dexters for some years now as I find dehorning a sickening process.
In my experience, a horned cow will use her weapons to dominate the non-horned animals in the herd. While we have never had a serious injury, we have had cows with tears in their hide quite regularly.
The horns also make it more difficult to deal with cattle in the race and head bail as some can not get their heads through unless they turn them to the side.
I have not personnally been gored by a horned cow however, I have been bumped accidently and it still hurt quite a bit. I have seen horned cows go for their handlers, luckily they missed, but only because the handlers were quick on their feet.
In terms of value, I find that many of the people taking up hobby farming and buying Dexters are not expereinced farmers and consequently prefer the polled animals which means you can ask a bit more for them and generally get it.
I agree wholeheartedly that a Dexter with a full set of horns is a magnificent sight, however, I share your reservations about safety for yourself and other animals when dealing with a horned cow.
Consequently, we have been breeding polled Dexters for some years now as I find dehorning a sickening process.
In my experience, a horned cow will use her weapons to dominate the non-horned animals in the herd. While we have never had a serious injury, we have had cows with tears in their hide quite regularly.
The horns also make it more difficult to deal with cattle in the race and head bail as some can not get their heads through unless they turn them to the side.
I have not personnally been gored by a horned cow however, I have been bumped accidently and it still hurt quite a bit. I have seen horned cows go for their handlers, luckily they missed, but only because the handlers were quick on their feet.
In terms of value, I find that many of the people taking up hobby farming and buying Dexters are not expereinced farmers and consequently prefer the polled animals which means you can ask a bit more for them and generally get it.
Peter
I suggest it is down to temperament - a dodgy Dexter without horns is just as risky as one with horns. All my Dexters are horned and I have never had any problems, the horns make good handlebars and as you say they they look nice. It also eliminates the need to dehorn calves.
Given they use their horns to establish dominance (pushing and shoving not goring) I am not sure I would mix horned and non-horned, therefore the only problem is buying in stock as there is a shortage of horned Dexters
Peter O'Brien
I suggest it is down to temperament - a dodgy Dexter without horns is just as risky as one with horns. All my Dexters are horned and I have never had any problems, the horns make good handlebars and as you say they they look nice. It also eliminates the need to dehorn calves.
Given they use their horns to establish dominance (pushing and shoving not goring) I am not sure I would mix horned and non-horned, therefore the only problem is buying in stock as there is a shortage of horned Dexters
Peter O'Brien
Peter
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castlemears
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Sue and I have an entirely horned herd, we have never had any trouble with the cows using their horns on us or the other animals, everyone that visites our herd always comments on how nice it is to see them with their horns.
if your are ever in our area (gloucestershire) we would be pleased to show you round our stock.
Bill Osborne .
if your are ever in our area (gloucestershire) we would be pleased to show you round our stock.
Bill Osborne .
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Duncan MacIntyre
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I must admit to a certain degree of ambivalence on horns - I really like to see horns on Dexters and indeed many other breeds, and for years did not dehorn any of my own. Then I had to move from having the herd tied in stalls in the winter to loose housing in pens, and find that animals which get on together fine out in the field soon give each other an unacceptably hard time in a pen. So now only my two oldest cows have horns. I was never damaged by horns, and I think it more likely that people will be damaged accidentally by horns, for example by bending to put feed in front of a beast in a stall just as it lifts or shakes its head. I can remember my father having several face injuries that way. Having said that I'd rather be butted by a polled Dexter than a horned one.Peter thornton wrote:What is the general opinion about horns?
I do like the look of a fully horned Dexter, but my reservations are:
1. Safety; Have many people been injured by horns? Do Dexters use their horns against humans?
2. Do horns decrease the value of an animal?
Peter Thornton
Given the percentage of Dexters which are dehorned I have to say I see nothing wrong with polled animals and now have one or two in the herd.
Whilst there should not be too much pain associated with proper dehorning sadly it is not always done properly and I have seen totaly unacceptable methods used by Dexter breeders. As small scale farmers many owners do not have the skill or knowledge to do this themselves and shoul get someone competent to do it. And that means using a local anaesthetic in every case. Actually as a vet I find Dexters particularly difficult to make a neat job of and now take a wider margin of skin off round the horn than I do with most other breeds.
As far as value goes, I never have found that it makes any difference. Sometimes horns increase the value. If they aren't wanted thay can be removed. They can't be put back on, and I don't think artificial ones would look the same.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
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Burnside Dexters 00316
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Ref Horns
As someone who has a totally dehorned herd and does take in some cows for bulling, I will not take any with horns as I find unless they are very quiet they will bully the rest.
We have one breeder in our area who does not always take the horns of his cattle and puts them through York Rare breeds sale and they usually go cheap.
Ann
As someone who has a totally dehorned herd and does take in some cows for bulling, I will not take any with horns as I find unless they are very quiet they will bully the rest.
We have one breeder in our area who does not always take the horns of his cattle and puts them through York Rare breeds sale and they usually go cheap.
Ann
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debra wiltshire
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We with our very small herd have started off without horns and so far have used with great success paste on our new calves.
For the same reasons as mention in above replies will now only considered buying in polled or dehorned cows for our and cows safety. If we see a horned cow as lovely as she may be will leave it for someone else to consider!
For the same reasons as mention in above replies will now only considered buying in polled or dehorned cows for our and cows safety. If we see a horned cow as lovely as she may be will leave it for someone else to consider!
Debra Wiltshire
Cosmos Dexters,
Lincs/Leics border
Cosmos Dexters,
Lincs/Leics border
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monica waltho
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perhaps it would be a good idea if totally horned herds were high-lighted in the herd book,so that people who wished to purchase horned cattle would know who to contact.
personally I think the polled gene is the best thing to happen to dexters!
We occasionally have cows come to visit the bull, providing the cattle are outside I don't have aproblem with them having horns but I would not have them in
winter.
At most sales Dexters with horns usually sell for less.
personally I think the polled gene is the best thing to happen to dexters!
We occasionally have cows come to visit the bull, providing the cattle are outside I don't have aproblem with them having horns but I would not have them in
winter.
At most sales Dexters with horns usually sell for less.
Monica
Smallwood Dexters
Smallwood Dexters
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castlemears
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looking at the replies above re polled, if a animal is naturally polled then it still carries genes from another breed and hence while it may have a pedigree it is not a totally purebred animal.
dehorn for ease of management ok if this suits your system.
horned cows are no more dangerous than are polled it all comes back to the quality of the stockman, even a polled animal can be dangerous if the stockmanship is bad.
the only danger with our totally horned herd is having your toes stepped on.
one big advantage of having them horned is that you can tell if the animal is a purebred dexter by the shape of the horns before you look at the pedigree.
there is an open invitation for anyone to come to the castlemears herd and ,cuddle a dexter with horns, (remember its stockmanship that counts)
Sue Osborne and Rev Patricia Pinkerton.
dehorn for ease of management ok if this suits your system.
horned cows are no more dangerous than are polled it all comes back to the quality of the stockman, even a polled animal can be dangerous if the stockmanship is bad.
the only danger with our totally horned herd is having your toes stepped on.
one big advantage of having them horned is that you can tell if the animal is a purebred dexter by the shape of the horns before you look at the pedigree.
there is an open invitation for anyone to come to the castlemears herd and ,cuddle a dexter with horns, (remember its stockmanship that counts)
Sue Osborne and Rev Patricia Pinkerton.
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Duncan MacIntyre
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I am sorry but this notion that any polled Dexter is more impure than any horned Dexter cannot go unchallenged. Of course it is easy to pick out polled animals, but remember that when Andrew Sheppey went lthrough the breed looking for animals with absdolutely no grading up in their background he could only find a handful out of a breed now numbering several thousand. People should not be encouraged to think that 95% of those animals in the herdbook are mongerels.castlemears wrote:looking at the replies above re polled, if a animal is naturally polled then it still carries genes from another breed and hence while it may have a pedigree it is not a totally purebred animal.
Sue Osborne and Rev Patricia Pinkerton.
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
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Burnside
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Isle of Bute
I must say that I agree with Duncan on this one!
You cannot say that a Dexter is 'not pure' simply on the basis of it's horned status. If the gene for pollings in any line of Dexters (it only takes one of them) is a naturaly occuring mutation then it is fair to say that there are some lines of Dexter which are polled which may be 'purer' than some lines of horned.
Now before anyone jumps in and poo-hoows the possibility of 'natural mutation' just let me note that the Dexter breed seems to be rather uique in the cattle world for it's instances of 'mutations'
... we have the Dun colour gene which all the genetic evidence so far indicates may well be a unique mutation within our breed (the basis for this is that there is NO OTHER breed of cattle [so far identified] which carries this unique colour mutation)
... then we have the chondro gene which is unique to the Dexter breed (that is why some scientists call/called it "The Dexte gene")
... and not only this but there are actually 2 'types' of the chondro gene - a unique fact which Julie Cavanagh assures me is a very very very very rare thing indeed- and this second gene is a recient mutation of the first.
So given just those -little- examples I would have to say that stretching the envelope to include at least one example of a natural mutation polled gene is not that realy that hard!
Kathleen.
You cannot say that a Dexter is 'not pure' simply on the basis of it's horned status. If the gene for pollings in any line of Dexters (it only takes one of them) is a naturaly occuring mutation then it is fair to say that there are some lines of Dexter which are polled which may be 'purer' than some lines of horned.
Now before anyone jumps in and poo-hoows the possibility of 'natural mutation' just let me note that the Dexter breed seems to be rather uique in the cattle world for it's instances of 'mutations'
... we have the Dun colour gene which all the genetic evidence so far indicates may well be a unique mutation within our breed (the basis for this is that there is NO OTHER breed of cattle [so far identified] which carries this unique colour mutation)
... then we have the chondro gene which is unique to the Dexter breed (that is why some scientists call/called it "The Dexte gene")
... and not only this but there are actually 2 'types' of the chondro gene - a unique fact which Julie Cavanagh assures me is a very very very very rare thing indeed- and this second gene is a recient mutation of the first.
So given just those -little- examples I would have to say that stretching the envelope to include at least one example of a natural mutation polled gene is not that realy that hard!
Kathleen.
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castlemears
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Duncan and Kathleen are right to a point,BUT Sue and Patrcia did not say that polled dexters are less pure than ANY horned dexters.
as stated if a dexter is naturally polled you know that it has still got a gene from the crossing breed without looking at its extended pedigree, it is correct to say that some polled dexters will be purer than some horned/dehorned dexters and as per the other point made if a dexter has horns they can give a very good indication as to the purity due to their shape.
we have been looking for an other bull for our girls for 2 years but wanted one that we could, preferably trace back to circa 1960 with no other breed in his ancestry it is not very easy to find such an animal.
personnally I always advise anyone looking to buy Dexters to look at their extended pedigree, but wether the animal is 100% pure, 99% pure or 50% pure the main thing in my opinion should be do you like the animal if you do then you have it whatever it might or might not be, I once had a lovely little grade cow, I never registered any of her prodeny but I kept her because I liked her.
Bill.
as stated if a dexter is naturally polled you know that it has still got a gene from the crossing breed without looking at its extended pedigree, it is correct to say that some polled dexters will be purer than some horned/dehorned dexters and as per the other point made if a dexter has horns they can give a very good indication as to the purity due to their shape.
we have been looking for an other bull for our girls for 2 years but wanted one that we could, preferably trace back to circa 1960 with no other breed in his ancestry it is not very easy to find such an animal.
personnally I always advise anyone looking to buy Dexters to look at their extended pedigree, but wether the animal is 100% pure, 99% pure or 50% pure the main thing in my opinion should be do you like the animal if you do then you have it whatever it might or might not be, I once had a lovely little grade cow, I never registered any of her prodeny but I kept her because I liked her.
Bill.
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castlemears
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Firstly let me state that I was not jioning in an attach on anyone but I was agreeing with the piont of view that 'because an animal is polled does not mean it is impure'
Secondly I need to clarify that the reason for that oppinion was not that a polled animal is NOW 'pure' except for the one gene which makes it polled. I am stating that it is POSSIBLE that some polled animals today come from lines which have a polled gene not because of cross breeding but because of a mutation... that (hypothetically) the polling occured naturaly ... ergo this gene was not a result of a "gene from the crossing breed"
Thirdly I must state that horned cattle ARE dangerous... that while some studs may have horned animals and may have no problems with them that it is a totaly unsafe practice to tell people with or without cattle experience that a horned animal is safe. All cattle when they are moved from a familiar enviroment to an unfamiliar environment feel some anxiety and may feel the need to defend themselves... if they have horns they may use them. I have SEEN dexter cattle use their horns on other members of their herd and on their new owners and even once in the show ring on the owner they were breed by... of course in a lot of instances people (with no cattle experience) are not even aware of the dangers because they do not know how to read cattle body language... this is the same reason that people in Australia have been hurt by Dexter bulls ... they have been told that Dexter bulls are never dangerous and have lived (via the hospital) to tell the tale of how they are.
Regards
Kathleen.
Secondly I need to clarify that the reason for that oppinion was not that a polled animal is NOW 'pure' except for the one gene which makes it polled. I am stating that it is POSSIBLE that some polled animals today come from lines which have a polled gene not because of cross breeding but because of a mutation... that (hypothetically) the polling occured naturaly ... ergo this gene was not a result of a "gene from the crossing breed"
Thirdly I must state that horned cattle ARE dangerous... that while some studs may have horned animals and may have no problems with them that it is a totaly unsafe practice to tell people with or without cattle experience that a horned animal is safe. All cattle when they are moved from a familiar enviroment to an unfamiliar environment feel some anxiety and may feel the need to defend themselves... if they have horns they may use them. I have SEEN dexter cattle use their horns on other members of their herd and on their new owners and even once in the show ring on the owner they were breed by... of course in a lot of instances people (with no cattle experience) are not even aware of the dangers because they do not know how to read cattle body language... this is the same reason that people in Australia have been hurt by Dexter bulls ... they have been told that Dexter bulls are never dangerous and have lived (via the hospital) to tell the tale of how they are.
Regards
Kathleen.
Kathleen
By implication you are saying dehorned/polled cattle are safe! No animal, domesticated or not, is 'safe' under the conditions you describe (look up the figures on fatalities with dehorned Jersey bulls). I suggest a novice with a horned Dexter will naturally be much more cautious/careful than with an apparently cuddly short dehorned Dexter. I also suggest it is much easier to read 'body language' with a horned Dexter. However, I suggest we agree to differ!
Regards
Peter
By implication you are saying dehorned/polled cattle are safe! No animal, domesticated or not, is 'safe' under the conditions you describe (look up the figures on fatalities with dehorned Jersey bulls). I suggest a novice with a horned Dexter will naturally be much more cautious/careful than with an apparently cuddly short dehorned Dexter. I also suggest it is much easier to read 'body language' with a horned Dexter. However, I suggest we agree to differ!
Regards
Peter
Peter
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