Size is definitely a factor. Beef, like many foods, needs time to develop its flavour. If a Dexter is to reach 200 kgs dead weight in 24 months, it only has to grow at half the rate of an Angus or Simmental. It can do that easily on grass whereas the big guys can't. Of course the marbling is another important factor.
The same applies in fruit, high latitude apples from Northern Europe, Washington State in USA and New Zealand grow more slowly and have much more flavour than those grown in hotter climates.
When is a Dexter not a Dexter? - That is the question...
Maybe I am wrong, but I think the majority of people who put comments on this site are against dexters getting too big whether beef breeders or not and whether for or against short-legged dexters. Getting rid of the chrondroplasia gene does not necessarily mean bigger dexters, look at Beryl's herd. I ,too, certainly have several "small non-shorts" who are no taller than my shorts.
There seems to be a worry that by breeding only animals without the Chrondo gene this will result in Dexters getting bigger. Whereas I would argue that it will give less variation as the offspring are more predictable in size. All the biggest non-short steers that I have produced have come off short legged cows.
If using a "small non-short" bull on a short-legged cow, there are 3 options of offspring height: short, "medium" or tall. Whereas if I use my small non-short bull ( can't I just say medium?!) on a medium legged cow, the same size as my short legged, I will get a medium legged calf.
I cannot see the gene being bred out, whatever the ethics, as there will always be a demand for short-legged, and the dexters versatility is something that draws many people. However, there could be a bit more positive action to encourage breeding of non-shorts (and don't interprete that as "tall" dexters) and encouragement in the show ring, as Ann states.
Penny
There seems to be a worry that by breeding only animals without the Chrondo gene this will result in Dexters getting bigger. Whereas I would argue that it will give less variation as the offspring are more predictable in size. All the biggest non-short steers that I have produced have come off short legged cows.
If using a "small non-short" bull on a short-legged cow, there are 3 options of offspring height: short, "medium" or tall. Whereas if I use my small non-short bull ( can't I just say medium?!) on a medium legged cow, the same size as my short legged, I will get a medium legged calf.
I cannot see the gene being bred out, whatever the ethics, as there will always be a demand for short-legged, and the dexters versatility is something that draws many people. However, there could be a bit more positive action to encourage breeding of non-shorts (and don't interprete that as "tall" dexters) and encouragement in the show ring, as Ann states.
Penny
The hidden drawback in Dexters is that when one talks of size, there is a tendency to ignore that in the ‘short leg’ size cannot be estimated. It is perfectly possible to be breeding enormous Dexters yet remain oblivious, until a calf is born without the faulty gene.
I am uneasy when the animal is described as traditional - for eighteen years I used a ‘short leg’ bull but retained both ‘long’ and ‘short’ progeny. Over time there was gradual shift away from the ‘short’ – they didn’t survive to the same extent as the ‘long’, although using only a chondro bull on a mix of ‘short and long’ cows a preponderance of ‘short’ were born.
This suggests the faulty gene could never have survived in the wild; it wasn’t until man’s meddling in the eighteenth century that it was introduced, and by the mid-twentieth the breed was nearly wiped out. Far from being two different animals the one carries a full complement of genes whereas the ‘short ‘ is lacking one gene; they can be identical in all other respects, although the fact that the skeleton is stunted gives the impression of more beef in the ‘short’.
I am uneasy when the animal is described as traditional - for eighteen years I used a ‘short leg’ bull but retained both ‘long’ and ‘short’ progeny. Over time there was gradual shift away from the ‘short’ – they didn’t survive to the same extent as the ‘long’, although using only a chondro bull on a mix of ‘short and long’ cows a preponderance of ‘short’ were born.
This suggests the faulty gene could never have survived in the wild; it wasn’t until man’s meddling in the eighteenth century that it was introduced, and by the mid-twentieth the breed was nearly wiped out. Far from being two different animals the one carries a full complement of genes whereas the ‘short ‘ is lacking one gene; they can be identical in all other respects, although the fact that the skeleton is stunted gives the impression of more beef in the ‘short’.
I think anyone who is worried about dexters growing to the size of Aungus will have a very long wait. I have had several cows here to the bull this year that are probably at the top end of the height range. However as I also have welsh black crosses grazing on my proprety the dexters are still tiny in comparison. Put a non short against a commercial calf of 6mths and the result makes the dexter looking like the commercials calf. So for anyone worrying about dexters getting to big, unless people use a larger breed to grade up, I doubt it will happen. As long as dexters remain pure, then |I'm sure they will remain small. 
Ann I would like to think your assumptions correct. Firstly, other breeds are all growing bigger. The modern Aberdeen Angus is probably half as big again compared to the neat little animal I first knew. Some of the first Welsh Black I met were no bigger than some modern day Dexters. When the breed grows incrementally it can be dangerous. It has already been met with an increase in our standards.
I still remember my horror when I first saw Canwell Buster who was 46”, today he would not be considered big! The last Dexter bull I saw at a show, I genuinely thought must have been stalled by mistake in the Dexter lines. The aim in the commercial breeds is to breed bigger. In the case of the Dexter, where small size is one of its chief attractions, this must be a mistake.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
I still remember my horror when I first saw Canwell Buster who was 46”, today he would not be considered big! The last Dexter bull I saw at a show, I genuinely thought must have been stalled by mistake in the Dexter lines. The aim in the commercial breeds is to breed bigger. In the case of the Dexter, where small size is one of its chief attractions, this must be a mistake.
Beryl (Woodmagic)
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wagra dexters
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I know that Charolais was used to increase the size of Murray Grey. It is believed here that Friesians were used to increase the size of Angus.
Would these other breeds have gained such enormous size without being specifically infused to do so?
Margaret
Would these other breeds have gained such enormous size without being specifically infused to do so?
Margaret
Graham Beever & Margaret Weir
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
http://www.wagra-dexter.com.au/
ten years ago I went down to Wales to buy a welsh black bull with with my brother and was really surprised to find that a lot of the welsh black heifers for sale where not much bigger than non short dexters. he has crossed the welsh black with his continental cross heifers as he wishes to have an easy calver bull for the heifers. the resulting progeny X have given him some very good grades. so he brought another replacement welsh black bull last spring and again I went with him and this bull came from Saddleworth moors on the top of the M62 so not dissimilar terrain to wales, and again these where grass fed animals who lived out 365 days of the year and only where brought down to finish. Dexters have been traditionally sold as animals who will forage on poor pasture. Something that over the years I think many of them have lost this ability in this country as most of us keep them on good (in some cases very good pasture) thus possibly contributing to them increasing in size. However I still don't think that with care dexter s will ever get to the size of the modern day Angus which is now so infiltrated with import Canadian & American blood lines. The original shorthorns that have joined the Rare breeds list are still not much bigger than the ones we used to keep on my families farm when I was a child they have not increase that much in size. thats my theory any way. Maybe with the passing of time size may increase, but looking at my dexters against other breeds they are still tiny even though most of them are non short. Yes i still have 3 short legged girls who will see their days out with me.
have not increase that much in size. thats my theory any way. Maybe with the passing of time size may increase, but looking at my dexters against other breeds they are still tiny even though most of them are non short. Yes i still have 3 short legged girls who will see their days out with me. -
Duncan MacIntyre
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- Location: Isle of Bute, Scotland, UK
What a complicated breed the Dexter is. I came to the breed first to get a house cow, having seen the short legged Dexters in the lines at the Royal Show in the early 1980’s. Till then I had only seen pictures and heard lectures about genetics and bulldog calves at University. I was very disappointed not to be able to buy a short legged cow or in calf heifer easily as they were so scarce in these days. Eventually John Thornborrow (auctioneer) suggested contacting Veronica Schofield and I bought my first Dexter, a bit disappointed that she was long legged. (I mean I was disappointed that the Dexter was long legged) For the first few years the herd consisted of my first cow, her long legged daughter, Ilsington Bramble, (a short legged but substantial bull) and their offspring. I happily took the short legged heifers which appeared to order to Stoneleigh and sold them for very worthwhile prices. Time moved on and a short legged cow came into the herd, was put to the short legged bull, produced short legged offspring for several years and everything in the garden was lovely, till one year I produced 4 bulldogs from 3 females.
Having learned the lesson the hard way I resolved never to have a short legged bull again, and made a 1200 mile round trip with the trailer to collect my first Woodmagic bull. Tied in my byre next to Valentine Keanu, my last short legged bull, it was interesting to see that they were exactly the same height. No cows were culled simply because they were short, so it took quite a few years before my herd was totally carrier free, but it has been now for some years. My current bull is about 42”, my home bred cows are 36” to 38”. They are not show-perfect, but they please me as what Dexters should be without the problem of the bulldog in the background.
This thread has produced some interesting comment. One idea which has been touched on is that the breed cannot increase more than a certain amount, and Louisa has commented on some general principles in relation to average size and standard deviation. If the breed were not so diverse genetically this might well hold true, but I am concerned that selection for larger size to make beef sales more commercial will result in inadvertant selection for the genes introduced by grading up processes. I have no serious problem with the grading up which was done when the breed was at an all time low, but it is not needed now. If we select for size, we may produce individuals up to size with their ancestors, which may be Jersey, Angus, Shorthorn, Friesian or whatever. Of course many of these breeds are now larger than they were a few years ago, so we will not produce Dexters the height of the modern Angus. But the modern Angus is only a name, it is not the Angus which earned the reputation. Be that as it may, the Dexter was never the size of any of these breeds which will define the upper limits which could be reached by determined breeding for size. If we increase size, many seem to think we will lose flavour and possibly texture of our beef. And if we go to the size of an old fashioned Angus we will be neither one thing nor the other, too big to be the Dexter we treasure, and still too small to compete with the modern commercial beef cow. So what will have been gained?
We also have to try to understand the influence of the short legged Dexter in breeding. Some seem to understand the influence, and others just don’t seem to get it. The point being made is that if a bull and cow are short leg, and are at the upper end of the size limits, then the long legged calves from that bull and cow can be expected to be 6 to 8 inches taller, taking them well over the limit. These large cattle are to my mind possibly the result of inadvertent selection for the height of non-dexter animals used in the grading up of appendix animals. I do not think there is any harm in the grading up genes being in the breed as long as they are not selected and re-constituted in individuals. We have allowed them in legitimately, and possibly some illegitimately, so must accept them, but leave them well diluted where they will have only minor influence.
I firmly believe that we can have our small Dexter and be free of the bulldog, but we are not nearly ready yet, and it will take many years before sufficient non-carrier “shorts” have been bred, and enough selection done on them to produce first class Dexters. It may be that outside influences may dictate the departure of the carrier cattle, but till then we should keep the breed as broad as it can be, whilst retaining its most distinctive feature, the small size.
with apologies for the length of this ramble
Duncan
Having learned the lesson the hard way I resolved never to have a short legged bull again, and made a 1200 mile round trip with the trailer to collect my first Woodmagic bull. Tied in my byre next to Valentine Keanu, my last short legged bull, it was interesting to see that they were exactly the same height. No cows were culled simply because they were short, so it took quite a few years before my herd was totally carrier free, but it has been now for some years. My current bull is about 42”, my home bred cows are 36” to 38”. They are not show-perfect, but they please me as what Dexters should be without the problem of the bulldog in the background.
This thread has produced some interesting comment. One idea which has been touched on is that the breed cannot increase more than a certain amount, and Louisa has commented on some general principles in relation to average size and standard deviation. If the breed were not so diverse genetically this might well hold true, but I am concerned that selection for larger size to make beef sales more commercial will result in inadvertant selection for the genes introduced by grading up processes. I have no serious problem with the grading up which was done when the breed was at an all time low, but it is not needed now. If we select for size, we may produce individuals up to size with their ancestors, which may be Jersey, Angus, Shorthorn, Friesian or whatever. Of course many of these breeds are now larger than they were a few years ago, so we will not produce Dexters the height of the modern Angus. But the modern Angus is only a name, it is not the Angus which earned the reputation. Be that as it may, the Dexter was never the size of any of these breeds which will define the upper limits which could be reached by determined breeding for size. If we increase size, many seem to think we will lose flavour and possibly texture of our beef. And if we go to the size of an old fashioned Angus we will be neither one thing nor the other, too big to be the Dexter we treasure, and still too small to compete with the modern commercial beef cow. So what will have been gained?
We also have to try to understand the influence of the short legged Dexter in breeding. Some seem to understand the influence, and others just don’t seem to get it. The point being made is that if a bull and cow are short leg, and are at the upper end of the size limits, then the long legged calves from that bull and cow can be expected to be 6 to 8 inches taller, taking them well over the limit. These large cattle are to my mind possibly the result of inadvertent selection for the height of non-dexter animals used in the grading up of appendix animals. I do not think there is any harm in the grading up genes being in the breed as long as they are not selected and re-constituted in individuals. We have allowed them in legitimately, and possibly some illegitimately, so must accept them, but leave them well diluted where they will have only minor influence.
I firmly believe that we can have our small Dexter and be free of the bulldog, but we are not nearly ready yet, and it will take many years before sufficient non-carrier “shorts” have been bred, and enough selection done on them to produce first class Dexters. It may be that outside influences may dictate the departure of the carrier cattle, but till then we should keep the breed as broad as it can be, whilst retaining its most distinctive feature, the small size.
with apologies for the length of this ramble
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
The above comments made by Duncan seem very balanced and well thought out.
However - if it really is a good idea to have our small dexter and be free of the bulldog and that is what the majority of dexter owners want to happen and no time limit is ever set on when this is to be done by - it will never happen as nobody will need to change their breeding policy.
Stephanie
However - if it really is a good idea to have our small dexter and be free of the bulldog and that is what the majority of dexter owners want to happen and no time limit is ever set on when this is to be done by - it will never happen as nobody will need to change their breeding policy.
Stephanie
Stephanie Powell
Duffryn Dexters 32824
Abergavenny
https://www.facebook.com/Duffryn-Dexter ... 609196773/
Duffryn Dexters 32824
Abergavenny
https://www.facebook.com/Duffryn-Dexter ... 609196773/
For some reason I cannot edit my post above this one.
It should read - "and if that is what the majority of dexter owners want".....
Stephanie
It should read - "and if that is what the majority of dexter owners want".....
Stephanie
Stephanie Powell
Duffryn Dexters 32824
Abergavenny
https://www.facebook.com/Duffryn-Dexter ... 609196773/
Duffryn Dexters 32824
Abergavenny
https://www.facebook.com/Duffryn-Dexter ... 609196773/
Like Saffy I admire Duncan’s excellent summing up, but am not happy with the conclusion. We are certainly in no position to eradicate all chondro-affected animals, and I don’t think anyone is advocating that we should. I do think, if there is sufficient support, we should establish it as our ultimate aim, giving encouragement to go down this path as Saffy suggests. There is still a tendency to suggest that the animal carrying the lethal is in some way different or even superior to the chondro free. The two are identical except that the one is lacking one of the pair of genes which supply the blue-print for the skeletal formation. What possible advantage can there be in continuing to breed for it, especially since it is linked to some loss of longevity, poor hind feet etc.?
Beryl (Woodmagic)
Beryl (Woodmagic)
a) If the short Dexters (often? sometimes?) are genetically bigger then they look, they must be the main risk that the breed is growing bigger.
b) With the non shorts you know the size, and breeding from the biggest animals can easily be avoided.
Is this right?
If so, to aim for a chrondro free breed must be the BEST way to prevent it from growing to big.
b) With the non shorts you know the size, and breeding from the biggest animals can easily be avoided.
Is this right?
If so, to aim for a chrondro free breed must be the BEST way to prevent it from growing to big.
Anna Bergstrom
Sweden
Sweden
I have one more question.
If there are only a few chondro free herds that fit within the standard, how tall are non short Dexters from other herds? My question is honest, I never have seen Brittish Dexters.
Our Dexters (Sweden, 100% chondro free) are generally a little to big I think, but quite a few are within the standard. I am sure that breeding the average height down a little can be done. But no one can make me believe that breeding from short animals would be the way to do it. No one.
If there are only a few chondro free herds that fit within the standard, how tall are non short Dexters from other herds? My question is honest, I never have seen Brittish Dexters.
Our Dexters (Sweden, 100% chondro free) are generally a little to big I think, but quite a few are within the standard. I am sure that breeding the average height down a little can be done. But no one can make me believe that breeding from short animals would be the way to do it. No one.
Anna Bergstrom
Sweden
Sweden
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Duncan MacIntyre
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for interest, see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/news/ uk/article551262 0.ece
Duncan
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
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Broomcroft
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Hi Duncan, the link address is slightly wrong, here it is: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 512620.ece, he said confidently! I assume this is the article?
Edited By Broomcroft on 1231964857
Edited By Broomcroft on 1231964857
Clive