When is a Dexter not a Dexter? - That is the question...

Post by **Mark Bowles** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:07 pm

I have a level herd, all my cows are nearly the same size, all 22 of them.
Of course they are all dwarf, deformed, lethal gened, mutant shortlegs,......and i love them all, god bless em.

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:42 am

Many Dexter breeders are all for a future chondro-free utopia, but I can't see that any of us want that to the extent where any current breeders are deprived of their beloved carriers. No-one is advocating such a scheme.

However, prior education is a moral issue in that all prospective breeders should be made thoroughly aware of chondro implications before the society accepts their joining fees. It is not a simple case of buyer beware, because new people would not suspect a mutation if they have only ever seen carriers and smaller non-carriers. Unless they had done their homework they would not expect that any serious farmer would intentionally perpetuate a potentially lethal mutation. It should be impressed upon them that dwarfism is not the only way towards small chunky short Dexters.

Selecting towards shorter non-carrier bulls is probably not only a breeding tool for the specific herd, but also an unwitting selection toward conservation of the original uninfused genes.

Ken Hobbs · Post by **Ken Hobbs** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:40 pm

Does anyone know how many premature or deformed calves have been born in the last five years? or are we trying to create fear among breeders by breeding shorts.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:24 pm

When Margaret is referring to mutation, that is a mutated gene, it does mean the animal is a mutant like in "Alien" or "Godzilla versus King Kong"....that was a great fillm. It is the correct use of the term as far as I know. It does not mean your shorties are going to jump on you in the dark and tear out your throat! Well, not unless you haven't been feeding them enough. Genetic mutation can be responsible for animals branching out in different directions and is part of nature. That's how I understand it. It can be good or bad.

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:06 pm

Ken there is no way of ascertaining how many lethals have been born, many newcomers see no necessity to record them, and some old hands deliberately don’t. Most experienced breeders use one sound parent in order to avoid the ultimate problem, but this discussion has also included the drawbacks of the carrier.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

Peter thornton · Post by **Peter thornton** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:07 pm

I wonder if anyone sees a link with this discussion and the recent discussions in the Kennel Club?

But where do we go from here? Surely it's time that the DCS stopped actively encouraging carrier animals by favouring them in the judging ring?

Edited By Peter thornton on 1232111268

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:18 pm

To do that you need to use judges that don't prefer them - quite simple really!

Stephanie

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:05 pm

Simplicity comes unstuck when they are picked mainly by folks who keep shorts themselves, the majority of judges are short leg breeders, you favour your own selected type, no matter how carefully you try to be impartial.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:00 pm

The shows I've been to in the south didn't seem to have many, if any, non-short Dexters to judge, except for a few bulls. So perhaps we also need to get more participation from the non-short breeders. I'm going to give it a go this year for the first time and I have only got non-shorts. So we shall see. I intend to enjoy myself anyway, regardless of the outcome.

Colin

nuttalls · Post by **nuttalls** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:44 pm

colin all the aboves, is enough to put people off for life. if its such a problem, shouldnt they be phased out? was goin to show this year but R they up to standard? who knows best THE SOCIETY? i dont like to think we all have pedegree,s with a handful not up to standard.can the vet test for this?confused

jhelp jean jordeth

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:58 am

Last night we secured a professional cattle person to judge the Dexters at a show in our region. She has a lot of judging experience with British & European beef & dual purpose cattle, but has never judged Dexters before.
She was as delighted to be asked as I was that she accepted, then she asked for breed information literature, Dexter judging criteria brochures, etc.
I have never been to a show where Dexters have been judged by a Dexter breeder and wouldn't consider asking one, although it got so close as to almost having to ask the same Murray Grey person who judged last year, which is not an ideal situation either, even though we had no complaints or criticism.
Margaret.

Edited By wagra dexters on 1232161345

ann · Post by **ann** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:35 pm

Unfortunetly in England the reverse is the case, the DCS choses the judges and if the powers that be don't like the way you judge then you are out and anyone who wishes to judge dexters has to serve an apprenticeship under a dexter cattle society judge and also has to attend the DCS judging seminar every year. If you don't attned then your name is taken of the list unless you have a very good reason.

We have some excellent young farmers in this country who have learn't their trade at the young farmers clubs, and could, i'm sure bring a breath of fresh air to the show rings, however most of them have neither the time or money to trail round the show rings as an apprentice to a dexter judge when they can practice their art closer to home on commercial breeds.

Maybe our new committee will look at encouraging more new judges from the other breeds to join the rather depleted list of DCS approved judges. then a few more of the non shorts may get a look in.
Needless to say we do have a few who will give a god non short a look in.

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:29 pm

Thank you Ann. I didn't know that. Sounds a bit like an 'Old Boys' secret society, if you'll pardon my unasked-for opinion.
Dexters are cattle with a type and standard, just like any other breed of cattle. It doesn't take much homework for an experienced judge to learn that the 3 colours & 2 types are of equal merit in the show-ring, or should be.
Margaret.

ann · Post by **ann** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:14 pm

thats a breath of fresh air Margret,

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:55 pm

I think the judges perfectly understand that the different types and colours are/and should be judged of equal merit.

The problem is two fold.

1. Showing has been done with the carriers for so long that non carriers are still outnumbered. This is to a great extent because non carrier owners feel they will be wasting their time going.

2. Judging is done by people who prefer the look of the carrier and therefore appear to find it difficult to judge a non carrier animal. This has to be put right quickly to give a level playing field in the show ground for all Dexter owners. After all - whether or not the carrier is to be phased out in the future - in the shows of today it is the best Dexter that should win isn't it? Maybe the way they choose a judge in Australia is the answer for us?

Stephanie