Cross breeding

boydd · Post by **boydd** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:00 pm

Perhaps not the best subject to discuss here! However we keep a medium sized herd of dexter and hav very much bred the largest sizes we could basied around milk production, we now need to look to be able to sell the calfs better, we thought to coss them as we dont need any heifers at the mo, does anyone have any experace of this and if any breeds are good for this ie no calfing issued.

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:23 pm

We've been breeding pure for about 6 years and at the same time investigating crossing, for commercial reasons, for all that time. Personally, we came down to a choice of three breeds and they were Angus, Ruby Red Devons (i.e. North Devons) and Sussex. All, we are told after extensive asking other peoples opinion and experience, would not give us calving problems as long as we avoided short-leg cows and anything else that was too small.

We eliminated Ruby Red Devons because (a) they are rare around here so no market for them when we are finished and (b) they will put on size on fresh air so when put on our good grazing they would probably turn to fat. We eliminated Sussex because we aren't in the south east and so are rare around here, although they were recommended by a vet. So we chose Angus and found an old line of pedigree that were not too big. Ours is lower-chest height and does not look that out of place with the dexters. I went to see the herd and their pure Angus calves and they were almost exactly the same as our dexters. Maybe a touch bigger.

So I think it depends on where you are and what your grazing is like. If you're in the South West and have old grazing, you can't beat Ruby Reds. If you have modern high-sugar grasses, I wouldn't go near a Ruby. If you're in the South East then Sussex maybe, buy I don't know about how they finish. General advice we had all round, was to avoid real commercial breeds such as Charolais, Limousin, Belgium Blue (that would be a disaster!) etc.

I don't think you can ever say no calving issues though, not even dexter to dexter. We're having some big purebred calves this year. Must be the grass.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1243452543

boydd · Post by **boydd** » Wed May 27, 2009 9:00 pm

Thanks for the advice, what are your thoughts on a Beef Shorthorn, ive noted from the EBVs of the bull with the bowler hat they seam ok calvers

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Wed May 27, 2009 9:22 pm

As it happens I've never met anyone who crosses with Beef Shorthorn. Maybe someone else has who can help?

Bridgehouse · Post by **Bridgehouse** » Wed May 27, 2009 10:26 pm

We had problems last year calving Beef Shorthorns heifers with a Beef Shorthorn bull. They were bought in calf so not sure of the bulls etc. This year, with our own bull, has been a big improvement.

Seeing the bull in the pen next to my dexters I would be apprehensive. We have had some big calves.

Martin · Post by **Martin** » Thu May 28, 2009 8:27 am

Sussex is now the only breed that I keep (they suit my situation better than Dexters). There are two types of Sussex, 'Modern' and 'Traditional'. The modern has been crossed with the Limousin to get extra carcass weight for todays market. The traditional is smaller by at least a couple of inches and not as long. There is a marked difference between the two. Both will finish off grass easily before 24 months, one breeder I know finishes her bull calves at 14 months. Take a look at the web site www.sussexcattlesociety.org.uk as there may be a breeder near you.

boydd · Post by **boydd** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:05 pm

Thanks all for the advice!

Im based in S.E wales so the susex is out, and sound like the shorthorn is too, I would welcome any other posts from people who have cross bred, milk is the big motiver here and happy to stay pure just trying to get better cross sales. Gready I know,!

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:08 pm

How about Welsh Black? I was told by someone on this board that they produce small calves and they had crossed with one regularly. Nice beef too.

PS. Forgot to say that as well as only using him on larger non-shorts, we also never put our Angus to a heifer or at least until we see what we get next year.

Edited By Broomcroft on 1243544928

boydd · Post by **boydd** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:13 pm

Good point, we only keep long leg dexters a bit more space to milk from!!!

belive it or not have never seen a welsh black here!!!

perhaps i should just buy a good big dexter!

AlisonKirk · Post by **AlisonKirk** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:16 pm

There shouldn't be a problem marketing Dexter beef.

One of our pub owners decided to use only modern Angus from the family farm at the end of April, much against the chef's wishes, but that's life! That really put me out of my comfort zone and our well organised selling of Dexter beef regime.

We continued to slaughter animals that would have gone to the lost pub and for the past four weeks, really promoted our beef on the back of all the publicity it is currently receiving nationwide, not just in the North Cotswolds. The response / feedback has been overwhelming and we're now back on track and working with our new customers to personalise their requirements.

With the current financial climate, we've done everything we can to minimise risks. We do have sufficient Dexters to fulfill our requirements, but even if you have a few, it can still be done on a smaller scale.

If we'd been producing cross-bred Dexter beef (even though it may be nice beef), we wouldn't have had the same response. Remember if you use a Dexter bull to cross, the offspring should be registered with the BCMS as a Dexter X and no matter how good that offspring may be.

There's no easy option if you're farming Dexters, they will not realise their true value in the commercial market place. Breeders need to get out there with their own publicity and believe me the beef will sell itself.

Personally, I hate being a sales person, but passionate about our Dexters and the beef. To continue in business we've had to get out there. It doesn't always go our way and we take a knock, but we just have to move on.

I'm not against crossing Dexters or any other breed, but in the current financial climate the Dexter does have something special to offer.

I hope this will be of help to some of you out there.

Good luck

Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters

AlisonKirk · Post by **AlisonKirk** » Fri May 29, 2009 5:24 pm

Why do breeders want to get their Dexters bigger and bigger? They are not meant to be a large breed. Just get them finished properly, get the price right and you're away.

We sold a whole carcass to a local pub yesterday - the Dexter was 24 months, finished on red clover silage and realised just over £900. Total weight of beef 102.6kgs. Not a bad return.

Alison Kirk
Boram Dexters

nuttalls · Post by **nuttalls** » Fri May 29, 2009 8:07 pm

hi alison, have you got a shop? or how do you sell your meat with all the regulation,s? our meat sell,s brilliant, but not sure where we should sort it to parcel,s, and store it till next day. have you a walk in freezer hope you don,t mind me asking thanks jean jordeth

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:13 pm

Most people don't want to become salespeople and sell direct. The pressure to breed bigger is inescapable and it will happen and cannot be stopped as things are. There are bound to be some, but I do not know of a butcher who does not prefer bigger, or to be more accurate, that likes the small ones. The ones I know won't even accept a small animal and that is the same with some (maybe all, I wouldn't know) for finishers. So that's two major markets completely unavailable to the smaller dexter. People aren't daft and they realise this. If you're selling direct you can do what you want, but as I say, most people do not find this easy or desirable, they just want to farm.

Also, because of the lack of a general market for dexters, small size makes your enterprise far more risky. If something happens unexpectedly forcing you to pack up, as it did with Sylvia, then you can't just take them to market and get a good price, so the residual value of your herd could come as a shock if (or is it really when) the time comes. That is one of the major reasons why we do a "commercial" breed of sheep rather than a rare breed, so that we can just pack up almost at a moments notice and still get a fair price.

As Inger said, it's a dilemma in that general market forces want bigger (not huge, but bigger), but the dexter flavour is best in the smaller ones (my opinion). From a breed point of view, I think it is far preferable for those who want the security and advantages of fitting in more with the general market to cross. That's what we are doing, 80% of our herd are being crossed to fit in with the market and the other 20% we are going right down in size to as small as we can, but non-chondro, and the pure beef will be highly priced.

AlisonKirk · Post by **AlisonKirk** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:13 pm

Clive....... The meat is vacuum packed in primals at the abattoir & delivered fresh within 10/15 minutes of leaving the abattoir direct to the pub/restaurant or whatever.

We do keep a small amount of frozen meat in the deep freeze at home, but that meat is only for private customers/work colleagues and our own personal use.

Alison

AlisonKirk · Post by **AlisonKirk** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:15 pm

Sorry, Jean, just come back from wrapping silage - very tired & addressed my reply to Clive.

Alison