Dexter Cattle For Sale Discussion Board

Pennielea · Post by **Pennielea** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:10 pm

Recent minutes of Council meetings have been posted on the DCS website.
It would appear that we have another genetic problem to worry about. For more info. www.dextercattle.org/genPHA.htmm.
As it is a mutation which has occurred in Canada or USA and been exported to Australia are we likely to have it in UK or has it been hidden here since 1906 as is suggested without any of us noticing it?

Ian

Duncan MacIntyre · Post by **Duncan MacIntyre** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:37 pm

All DCS members will shortly be receiving a mailing related to this and I would advise patience waiting a short time for more information.

Duncan

bjreroberts · Post by **bjreroberts** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:38 pm

There are others on this forum far more qualified to comment, but I suspect that the probability of a PHA-carrier breeding with another PHA-carrier and then only 25% of their offspring are born dead and the rest with no visible effects means this will often be attributed to natural causes?

Edited By bjreroberts on 1248385154

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:07 am

The Americans and I presume other countries have a test for this genetic disorder and they are actively seeking to eradicate it and are having considerable success. I don't think they would agree that it originated in Canada or Australia but who cares where it came from. They certify animals as being PHA-free and once free it cannot be passed on, just like chondrodysplasia if my understanding is correct.

Here is a link to an article by the Purebred Dexter Cattle Association of North America on both PHA (Waterbabies) and Chondrodysplasia (Bulldogs):-

http://home.purebreddextercattle.net/index.p....emid=90

Edited By Broomcroft on 1248412354

Saffy · Post by **Saffy** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:51 am

I think this has been around for a while and is quite probably not just in Dexters but we may not know that yet, as not everyone will realise the reason.

A friend of mine told me a few years back that he had to cull a cow of his as she couldn't always take a calf to full term and then found afterwards by blood testing that a lovely red heifer out of her turned out to have the same problem.

Surely as there is a blood test it should be easy enough to eradicate, or test an animal before buying.

Stephanie

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:23 pm

I am surprised this subject hasn’t cropped up before; the Americans are keen to show that it originated over here; although I think it more likely it is home grown. It is essential we track any occurrences over here. The danger to the dam means it is more than likely to have been publicised if it has occurred. Other breeds certainly have it, but I don’t think is at all prevalent over here as it is in the States.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

Liz D · Post by **Liz D** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:03 pm

PHA does occur in other breeds, Marie-Anjou and Shorthorn for instance but the Dexter mutation is unique to Dexters. So far the 'first' proven source was Aldebaron Priapus, a a widely used Canadian AI bull, from Trillium Cluny, another AI bull and Woodmagic Wheatear. Cluny tested negative for the mutation when semen was tested and so we have no idea if the mutation began with Priapus or was inherited from his dam. So Priapus and some of his line are still the only proven carriers in North America and Australia. BJ is right when he talks about 'probabilities' but I think that many of these fetuses are slipped in the first trimester of gestation, rather than being carried to term. Making this an ecconomic problem for all of us who can ill afford an open cow. The United States and Australia are way ahead of us Canadians in testing but now that there is a tail hair test, Igenity Labs, available, testing is more affordable and I am hoping that more breeders do test and that we do eradicate it. Where it came from, really makes no difference, the point is that now we can test, identify and eradicate the gene from future generations. Liz

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:07 pm

I think if there was PHA in the UK Dexter herd to any degree, we would have noticed something. We had a bulldog once but it was a classic bulldog, not a waterbaby which can apparently be mistaken for one. Maybe bulls should be tested but to test all cattle would seem over the top I would think. On the other hand, if you search YouTube you'll find a video of a vet removing a waterbaby calf and all I can say is make sure you don't watch it if you are about to eat! If plenty of bulls are being used and unlike chondro it is not being actually bred for, the condition is going to struggle to get anywhere and could just stay undetected in some cows without any problem.

Woodmagic · Post by **Woodmagic** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:28 pm

‘Where it came from, really makes no difference’
On the contrary it is an important factor if you are not going to waste a lot of money on unnecessary testing. I agree with Clive you need to test all bulls, but if you are aware of the original source, the only females that need to be tested are those containing the original culprit in their pedigree.
Although the evidence to date suggests a link with Woodmagic Wheatear I have never had a single case in my herd and have offered evidence from my vet to that end. While it is possible that early abortions may have occurred and remained unnoticed, in the case of Australia and the States there is evidence of many occurrences full term. It is true that the Dexter mutation is confined to the Dexter but it is the same gene, which is faulty in the case of the other breeds.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

Liz D · Post by **Liz D** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:31 pm

Well I guess the answer to that Clive is that we didn't notice either, perhaps because, as I said, first trimester abortions of pha afflicted fetuses are more the norm than full term pregnancies. This is probably fortunate for the cow since full term PHA calves often mean her death. We aren't testing willy-nilly but only pedigrees at risk, which thankfully are only those with Aldebaron Priapus, and until proven differently Woodmagic Wheatear has to be suspect also. Also I think that some genetics, Priapus for instance, are much more concentrated outside of the UK. Liz

Liz D · Post by **Liz D** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:34 pm

I think Beryl that I was referring to whether the mutation began in any particular country, not the animals carrying or potentially carrying it. Liz

Broomcroft · Post by **Broomcroft** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:35 pm

How many go full term? An estimate?

Liz D · Post by **Liz D** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:34 pm

OH boy, I have no idea Clive. Here is the link to the ADCA PHA fact sheet http://www.dextercattle.org/genPHA.htm

Maybe someone there would be more qualified to answer that but I think we only hear about the full term ones. I mean when you think about it the gene was only identified in December '08 and so while a full term pha calf was an extraordinary event and might have been misidentified as a bulldog, a cow coming open was realatively common place and probably not thought of as a genetic disorder. Liz

marion · Post by **marion** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:01 pm

Clive, It's been more than 7 months since the Australians identified the source of PHA and tested all their AI bulls. US and Canada tested all their AI bulls as the first and most logical step, and some owners tested their animals by blood test. To my knowledge, any carriers so far found, trace back to Aldebaran Priapus, and I have not heard of any that trace back to W.Wheatear directly, without Priapus. The very recent availability of hair testing here will enable us to test many more animals.
Do you know whether testing of AI bulls has been started yet in England? Or, perhaps following the pedigree of Woodmagic Wheatear back a bit and then forward, and testing those animals still living or where genetic material may be available? ..marion

wagra dexters · Post by **wagra dexters** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:43 am

We co-own Aveley Tara. She has Woodmagic Wheatear as female grand-dam.
According to our DCAI website, animal enquiry section, Wheatear had seven offspring (imported embryos) in Australia, full siblings to Aldebaran Priapus.
Five of them have been tested for PHA, all non-carrier. The other two have not been tested.
Margaret