Hi All,
am just wondering if there is anyone out there in Dexterdom who has - or know someone who has - Dexter Cattle remains that would date to the pre 1920?
By remains I mean a set of horns or a hide or somesuch things.
Even better would be if there are any that are from the Original Irish cattle!
????????
Kathleen.
Pre 1920s Dexter DNA
Hi Carol... you are a long way from home *wink*
Well I am glad I have some ones bloody attention *laughing*
... actually I think I have at least 40 people's from the amount of hits but unfortunately it is like quite a few of my questions they seem to have no answers *smile*
But seriously I am just thinking along a certain line (have been for a while in fact) and was wondering if there was any 'Dexter' remains out there that could be used in DNA testing *thinking hard* I am sure some years ago I was told that the archealogically finds in Britian indicated that there was a marked similarity between Dexters and the *trying to think what 'age' it was* ...dark age or maybe earlier Brit cattle.
But I do not want to go back quite that far *chuckle* I was just hoping that there might have been some bones in a natural history museum or such like ... or maybe an old hide hanging on some Irish wall ....*shrug* I have a bull's skull - horns and all - which I am going to hang over my fireplace so I thought there might be something similar out there somewhere.
Kathleen.
Well I am glad I have some ones bloody attention *laughing*
... actually I think I have at least 40 people's from the amount of hits but unfortunately it is like quite a few of my questions they seem to have no answers *smile*
But seriously I am just thinking along a certain line (have been for a while in fact) and was wondering if there was any 'Dexter' remains out there that could be used in DNA testing *thinking hard* I am sure some years ago I was told that the archealogically finds in Britian indicated that there was a marked similarity between Dexters and the *trying to think what 'age' it was* ...dark age or maybe earlier Brit cattle.
But I do not want to go back quite that far *chuckle* I was just hoping that there might have been some bones in a natural history museum or such like ... or maybe an old hide hanging on some Irish wall ....*shrug* I have a bull's skull - horns and all - which I am going to hang over my fireplace so I thought there might be something similar out there somewhere.
Kathleen.
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Banberries
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Kathy Millar
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Duncan MacIntyre
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What are the chances of any remains of that age being accurately identifiable? Even if they were are they likely to tell us anything of statistical significance? We would need to be very careful what inferences were drawn from analysis of a very small number of old samples. Just as the breed today has many influences, so in days of old there were many inputs of different blood. When the herdbook was established many were registered purely on looks and not on breeding and there would be an effect of that for many generations. I am no genetics expert - lets hear more from those who are.
Duncan
Duncan
Duncan MacIntyre
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Burnside Dexters 00316
Burnside
Ascog
Isle of Bute
Hi All,
I have not been ignoring your comments I have just been VERY VERY busy. But I am here now so I hope the following is not too little too late *smile*
Hi Carol *smile* they will move onto a new 'commotion' soon enough - if anything most Dexter breeders are not that resiliant ... well in my experience anyway ...or maybe that is just a generalization based on the Australian verson *wink*
Hello Catherine ... yes please!
Hi Kathy *chuckle* re the 'hits' I even get knives occasionaly!
But as to your questions "Can a DNA analysis be done from old bones and such? What would you be looking for?" ...well yes as far as I know bone can by used for DNA. They use old remains (bones) to map the relationship of the population of a Welsh town etc... and I have read that scientists used mitocondrial DNA from such remains to classify sections of the populations of Europe. So I am thinking that the principles would be the same with cattle. As to what I would be looking for ... nothing specifically... just curious to see what was there in relation to what 'Dexters' are 'genetically-speaking' now.
Hello Duncan, *Big smile*
"What are the chances of any remains of that age being accurately identifiable?"
Well I suppose you would just have to take the individual's or the museum's word for it ... same as we have to take the word of a breeder that the animals you buy (without DNA parent varification) are what they are. But I am sure that that fact alone (the veracity of the bones) would mean that the results would only ever be 'indications' of a certain result.
"Even if they were are they likely to tell us anything of statistical significance?"
Given my above answer ...I would say probably NO to 'statistical'.
"We would need to be very careful what inferences were drawn from analysis of a very small number of old samples."
Yes that is dead right! But then that also goes for looking at the DNA of current Dexters and using reverse reasoning to state that the animal years ago were 'such and such'!
"Just as the breed today has many influences, so in days of old there were many inputs of different blood. When the herdbook was established many were registered purely on looks and not on breeding and there would be an effect of that for many generations."
Oh Duncan you have said a 'mouth full' there!
When which herdbook was established?
But in leu of an answer to that question ... when we are discussing the herdbooks and those first established for the Dexters and Kerries in Ireland you can not talk in terms of 'breeding' versus 'looks'! Goodgreif! The breed was only 'defined' by a standard WHEN/AFTER it was put into a herdbook... so what Patty thought was a Dexter and what Willy thought was a Dexter may have been nothing the same except for the fact that both the animals were short Kerries - and then you would have to ask 'What was a Kerry'? to which you may be told: Some were red and white and some were black and all were good milkers and all were 'small'
Once the herdbooks were established then we can speak of 'breeding' but you are still only speaking of breeding an animal (a group of animals) which conforms to a breed standard which is basically a discription of how the animal should LOOK ... that is why we no longer have Kerries which are red and white...
It is sort of like asking when did the Celts become Welshmen?
Or
Is a Scot an Irishman by another name?
Or
Is an Ulsterman an Irishman or a Scot?
"I am no genetics expert - lets hear more from those who are."
I also would love to hear comments on this from a geneticist... but please no experts!
Regards
Kathleen.
I have not been ignoring your comments I have just been VERY VERY busy. But I am here now so I hope the following is not too little too late *smile*
Hi Carol *smile* they will move onto a new 'commotion' soon enough - if anything most Dexter breeders are not that resiliant ... well in my experience anyway ...or maybe that is just a generalization based on the Australian verson *wink*
Hello Catherine ... yes please!
Hi Kathy *chuckle* re the 'hits' I even get knives occasionaly!
But as to your questions "Can a DNA analysis be done from old bones and such? What would you be looking for?" ...well yes as far as I know bone can by used for DNA. They use old remains (bones) to map the relationship of the population of a Welsh town etc... and I have read that scientists used mitocondrial DNA from such remains to classify sections of the populations of Europe. So I am thinking that the principles would be the same with cattle. As to what I would be looking for ... nothing specifically... just curious to see what was there in relation to what 'Dexters' are 'genetically-speaking' now.
Hello Duncan, *Big smile*
"What are the chances of any remains of that age being accurately identifiable?"
Well I suppose you would just have to take the individual's or the museum's word for it ... same as we have to take the word of a breeder that the animals you buy (without DNA parent varification) are what they are. But I am sure that that fact alone (the veracity of the bones) would mean that the results would only ever be 'indications' of a certain result.
"Even if they were are they likely to tell us anything of statistical significance?"
Given my above answer ...I would say probably NO to 'statistical'.
"We would need to be very careful what inferences were drawn from analysis of a very small number of old samples."
Yes that is dead right! But then that also goes for looking at the DNA of current Dexters and using reverse reasoning to state that the animal years ago were 'such and such'!
"Just as the breed today has many influences, so in days of old there were many inputs of different blood. When the herdbook was established many were registered purely on looks and not on breeding and there would be an effect of that for many generations."
Oh Duncan you have said a 'mouth full' there!
When which herdbook was established?
But in leu of an answer to that question ... when we are discussing the herdbooks and those first established for the Dexters and Kerries in Ireland you can not talk in terms of 'breeding' versus 'looks'! Goodgreif! The breed was only 'defined' by a standard WHEN/AFTER it was put into a herdbook... so what Patty thought was a Dexter and what Willy thought was a Dexter may have been nothing the same except for the fact that both the animals were short Kerries - and then you would have to ask 'What was a Kerry'? to which you may be told: Some were red and white and some were black and all were good milkers and all were 'small'
Once the herdbooks were established then we can speak of 'breeding' but you are still only speaking of breeding an animal (a group of animals) which conforms to a breed standard which is basically a discription of how the animal should LOOK ... that is why we no longer have Kerries which are red and white...
It is sort of like asking when did the Celts become Welshmen?
Or
Is a Scot an Irishman by another name?
Or
Is an Ulsterman an Irishman or a Scot?
"I am no genetics expert - lets hear more from those who are."
I also would love to hear comments on this from a geneticist... but please no experts!
Regards
Kathleen.
I would not argue with you Peter. Unfortunately there are far too many examples of statistics being used to 'prove' a preconcieved idea... the individual has a hypothesis "X" and goes out and collects statistics which convieniently proves "X". Statistics are always open to manipulation in this way because it all depends on what the question is... or what the parameters are...
For example in Aus our association paid for the Chondro tests and JC did some very interesting graphs on the hieghts of Dexters and the correlation between these heights and the Chondro gene etc (and I am in no way critisising what was found or how it was collected or interpreted) BUT my piont is, re my above observation about 'parameters', that the cattle that were measured where considered 'mature' in height at 1 year and over. So I am left with the question "what would the results have been if the animals were not considered fully grown unless they were 3 years plus?"
Ah well such is life *smile*
Kathleen.
For example in Aus our association paid for the Chondro tests and JC did some very interesting graphs on the hieghts of Dexters and the correlation between these heights and the Chondro gene etc (and I am in no way critisising what was found or how it was collected or interpreted) BUT my piont is, re my above observation about 'parameters', that the cattle that were measured where considered 'mature' in height at 1 year and over. So I am left with the question "what would the results have been if the animals were not considered fully grown unless they were 3 years plus?"
Ah well such is life *smile*
Kathleen.