Unregistered Dexters

[redhill]

I had a phone call yesterday, asking if we had any steers to sell, we did'nt, the caller a local retired farmer who keeps a few animals to keep the withdrawl symptoms at bay, told me he now had 15 Dexters and wanted to increase to 20, I asked him if he was a DCS member his reply was, no it's too expensive and any way I dont want to show. This is a story we in this area hear again and again. There are several herds around this small corner of Gloucestershire of unregistered Dexters, two herds of 30 plus cattle, one of 20 , our caller with 15, and at least 3 owners with a couple of Dexters each, this brings us to a total of around 100 unregistered Dexters just in the Forest of Dean. I have spoken to a couple of the larger herd owners and the reply to the question, are you a DCS member comes back,the same ,too expensive, and thats only for showing. What is the position in the rest of the country? I think I must sign this posting, " concerned of Lydney" Sue

[Duncan MacIntyre]

I have to say I am not relly concerned about unregistered animals. It is a dream to have every pure animal registered with the breed society, and will never happen. Though the Dexter breed may differ from mosst livestock breeds in many respects but we are likely to have the same sort of structure to the breed - ie a sort of pyramid with registered stock at the top, the peak being those more interested in pedigree breeding and showing, then a bigger population of those registered pedigree but not quite such fanatic owners, and a large body at the base of the pyramid who are pure bred but not registered. There is nothing wrong with that, neither with the structure of the breed nor with the individuals within each group. Some owners may have animals in all areas of the pyramid. As long as the registered section is strong enough in numbers there is no need to try to get every animal registered. If the registered section at some time in the future was to drop to eg the numbers of the mid 1970's, then selected animals from the unregisered but believed pure might be used for grading up.

I honestly think the reason the unregistered ones cause concern just now is purely because the breed numbers are so high - our registered numbers are good.

Duncan (Nonchalant of the North)

[Broomcroft]

I hear the same thing as well and it is pretty much like that around us I feel, but can't quantify. But I don't think DCS is expensive except for bull reg fees and overage fees which are penal and damaging for all the reasons expressed in another topic recently.

If you want to compare fees with other societies, there is a comparison on the Steering Committee website that I posted some weeks ago. I have only put figures on from societies that publish them, so I hope they are indicative. There's an error in it as well but I can't remember what at the moment.



Edited By Broomcroft on 1213383688

[domsmith]

I have to say I am not relly concerned about unregistered animals. It is a dream to have every pure animal registered with the breed society, and will never happen. Though the Dexter breed may differ from mosst livestock breeds in many respects but we are likely to have the same sort of structure to the breed -

I dont know of many pedigre herds of angus that are not society members.

society membership is not for everyone but i think you should listen to those too expensive and only for showing comments, surely you risk losing some genetics. i would of thought the society could only benefit from increased membership.

dom

[Duncan MacIntyre]

Of course the society would benefit if everyone who owns a pure dexter became members and had the dexter registered, but in the real world we are never going to have all registered. The more Dexters there are in the country the more unregistered there will be. We cannot take the membership and registration down to a low level trying to get these people in. As a responsible society we must maintain the levels at a balance which allows us to be a modern breed society, do DNA work, try to run improvement schemes etc..

I know that the elite bull scheme has not been a roaring success but at least there have been efforts to make improvements. Anyone who is serious about breeding programmes and breeds with some goals, eg for myself to create a herd of non carrier animals with females 38 inches, for others it may be to improve killing out percentages or to have show winners with perfect feet and udders, but whatever the breeding goals the records of parentage are essential.

If we want to be doing things to include every Dexter owner then we should be doing things like beef identification and certification so Dexter beef can be sold as certified to be genuine. That is an area where we might involve some who are currently not interested in registering stock. It might just involve identifying the sire of course, not both parents, but such a scheme could benefit both the society and the breeders of beef.

Duncan

[Broomcroft]

If we want to be doing things to include every Dexter owner then we should be doing things like beef identification and certification so Dexter beef can be sold as certified to be genuine. That is an area where we might involve some who are currently not interested in registering stock. It might just involve identifying the sire of course, not both parents, but such a scheme could benefit both the society and the breeders of beef.

That's a great idea Duncan. How would we go about it? Perhaps a new thread when we're ready. I'm up to my ears in it at the moment.

[Rutherford]

The Elite scheme has not been a great success, largely because the emphasis is still on showing, and not utility or performance, we need to wrench the ‘experts’ away from this mindset. The results of the Cardiff project should prove useful in many ways, but unfortunately, it didn’t produce a marker for marketing purposes, and it could be a long time before we can.
To bring up the old adage that the Dexter is like other breeds, is in my view entirely false. The Dexter breeder on the whole is not the farmer who looks upon his animals as units of production. There are exceptions like Clive who is doing it on a big scale, and I hope the numbers will grow, but the vast majority are still small producers who keep them to compliment a good living style, and look upon their Dexters as part of their household. Their outlook and needs are totally different to the ordinary farmer, and on the whole they will expect to have access to a Society where they can gain support and interest and social interaction.
. However, in these days of increasing monetary squeeze they are going to hesitate, if financial considerations play too large a part.
Until we recognise our true identity we shall continue to fail our membership. Part of our remit should be to ensure an accurate Herd Book, much easier with the passports in place. Secondly we should help the novice to learn how to identify a good Dexter and that means not by looks, but performance, if their hobby is going to pay its way. Once you have done that, an improving breed will follow. Clive is far too modest about what he has done to advertise the beef qualities; lets have a Society now to rouse the enthusiasm of the members to have fun and success with their cattle too.
Beryl (Woodmagic)

[stew]

birth notify all pure bred stock and let the dcs select the uk core breeding annimals from that and dna them ,and take straws of seamen
im very cross with some of folk try to sell cra p stock for a lot of money just cos its ped reg
just cos its has a ped dosnt make a good beast
i have no trouble killing somthing that hasnt made my grade , but some folk wont send them in so they take em to a sale and sell em to someone else who then breeds from em and gets more poor stock but can ped reg them so the circle goes on
the people who opt out of the sytem can do what they wish with there un reg stock
i just sent two 26 month old boys in on monday at 165p kilo live weight i wouldnt have used em for bulling my girls but i am happy to spend hours looking and traveling for the right bull to serve them
think the dcs should go round all ped reg cattle that are for breeding and see if that the type of beast to breed from
and some folk should relise that even ped reg need killing out
its not all black and white i know but to keep standards it must be done

[Ted Neal]

Of course we should register as many animals as possible - I calculate something around 700 females per year are not being registered with the Society which must represent at least 250 herds. 250 herds paying an annual sub of £30 equals £7500 and 700 registrations shall we say at £8 equals £5600 a total of £13100. An increase of 10% on income; result - fees do not have to rise.
If I was selling or buying I would expect at least £50 more for a registered female. This is what we should be telling new buyers. When on Council I also suggested that new members be given a Voucher entitling them to a free female registration in their first year of membership. This to counteract the New member joining fee of £15.
We need to hang on to the 200 to 300 members we lose every year.
What about an amnesty and offer £5 registration for 6 months and try and get as many registered/transferred to members as possible.
Plus there is the Genetic loss.

[Broomcroft]

There's some good stuff in there Ted. The free registrations in the first year would usually amount to almost zero, if not actually zero, and yet it may pay dividends down the line because of getting new members on the books who will hopefully stay and help to keep costs down. Can't see any downside as long as a few bells and whistled added for protection against abuse.



Edited By Broomcroft on 1213782039

[redhill]

Well said Ted ! after a day at the Three Counties Show,where the Dexter did very well (dual purpose inter breed champion)I found myself wishing there could be a list of phrases included in the showing handbook,suggesting what to say when a microphone is pushed in front of you , other than "we just like to show them" Sue

[Sylvia]

I wish people talking about 'crap' Dexters, either registered or not would have the guts to post pictures so we can all learn what these often spoken about animals look like. I can't help wondering if one person's rubbish is another person's goal. If half the registered animals are rubbish I think it is safe to say that probably much the same percentage of unregistered Dexters are good examples of the breed. If DCS made it a lot easier to get these latter registered it would bring them into the fold and give on going benefits as their offspring also get registered.

[Saffy]

Does it really actually matter in the big scheme of things if some people wish to register Dexters, or for that matter Holsteins, Mountain Goats or any animal that is below whatever standard is being applied by Stew or anyone else.

If one wishes to buy decent stock it shouldn't be beyond the ability of most people to do a bit of homework and learn what a decent animal of that breed should look and perform like and judge for themselves before going ahead and buying them, let alone if one is already a breeder! There are many lovely people willing to walk newbies around their herds and talk Dexters!

Perhaps that way new owners would have more chance to learn about stockmanship first from seasoned keepers - not a bad thing.

If people will rush headlong into Dexters without a thought they may well buy unsuitable stock but that will happen if they run headlong into buying anything at all - not just Dexters!!! I don't see why that should stop anyone registering their animals if they conform to the breed standard. We may find one day that if we exclude all the less "lovely" Dexters that we have a smaller gene pool than we would like and deprive our Society of much needed funding.

Stephanie

[stew]

you could register all the pure bred dexters in the country but a percent of them would not be sutible to breed out of,
feel free to birth notify all calf born that are eligible, but we all must be more selective of the stock we breed from that way we get a better product
if what your after is beef dexters you need to look for the right cow and bull not just any old cow put to mr smiths bull down road , dairy men have been selective breeding for years , for example there not going to put a low yeilding girl back to a dairy bull there gonna cross her to a beefer and breed for dairy out of the higher yeilding cows
all i try to achive with my stock is good weight gain and overall health is the key, but breeding from poor stock is likely to result in more poor stock weather there reg or not
it seems to me that some people on this site arent to botherd about the quailty and keep them more like pets so let them
and i still maintain theres alot of poor reg stock that is getting bred from

[Saffy]

My background is in dairy farming, my father and I bred a top quality high yielding herd of cattle with excellent conformation, hence at my sale I was able to put an 18 year old Friesian/Holstein cow through the ring with her new born calf, ( niether for sale,) to demonstrate the longevity and tenacity of my cows. Her udder, top line, legs and feet were to be proud of.

My breeding criteria were and still are :-

1. Legs and feet first, they have to be able to walk before they can do anything else.

2.Then comes temperament, if it is bonkers it is no use.

3.Top line,well attached nice udder and a decent body comes next.

4.It has to be able to milk well or the calf won't grow well.

5. Colouring and everything else are important but not as important as the above to me!!!

Now that I have achieved a life long ambition and bought a few Dexters I intend to continue with the critcal eye that my father taught me to use on the dairy cows.

Also most of our Dexters will go for beef as that is our main reason for keeping them, I personally have no problem whatever with beefing a substandard - in my opinion - heifer.

What are your criteria Stew?


Stephanie