A subject for another thread

[Jac]

Perhaps a subject for another thread, but I'd be interested to see your two partial budgets for two herds with, say, females at £1000 and £500. You'd have to have a hefty production advantage to cover the extra depreciation and finance costs.

I would have believed you more had you snapped Lisa's hand off rather than making your excuses. Animals are not worth anything unless there is someone willing to pay it. Sitting on your hands at auction is not going to help prices. You may not want to expand your herd and therefore you are not willing to pay any more for those animals. You're no different to me. We can't will prices up, sadly.

I agree about beefing them though - if you can beef them for £1000+ after costs. Not many people can, hence why the prices are lower overall.

Indeed a subject for another thread Rob and one that has been debated at length with the same conclusions.
What people usually fail to budget for is their time and effort. £500 or thereabouts is about right if you are looking at ‘field’ cows but not if you are looking to do anything with them other than eat them or breed more ‘field’ cows. Perhaps this is why you advocate that Dexters are not for novices?

No excuses - I take the health of my herd very seriously. What started me off on this road was the result of a BVD test on a calf that I had bought in from someone who didn’t go to shows or sales but did buy stock up privately. Luckily for me this calf had been exposed (not by vaccination) but was not PI. It was not exposed to it here as all my animals later tested completely clean. So no, I do not want to expand my herd with anything bought in but not for the reason that you imply.

Foundation stock is not to be found in the classified ads. Like any other breeder who takes it seriously I am highly critical, perhaps over critical of my own stock but if I had not assumed that ‘a Dexter was a Dexter’ when I first started off I could have saved myself much heartache and expense along the way.

‘Quality is long remembered after price is forgotten’ and you don’t buy it for £500 unless it is virtually at the end of its breeding life.

[Saffy]

So Jac what would you pay for a top notch animal that was proven free BVD IBR etc?

[Jac]

That is a difficult question. If it was for sale at more than £3,000 then personally I couldn't justify it to my other half.

If you have something that is well bred, good conformation, healthy, lovely temperament, proven breeder at the start of its life, halters, walks into a trailer, walks into the crush, walks in the parlour, milks adequately (doesn't kick you) then it is worth its weight in gold. This is what breeders surely are aiming for- not breeding for numbers then selling them off cheaply to a 'good home' for less than the meat value.

[Rob R]

What people usually fail to budget for is their time and effort. £500 or thereabouts is about right if you are looking at ‘field’ cows but not if you are looking to do anything with them other than eat them or breed more ‘field’ cows. Perhaps this is why you advocate that Dexters are not for novices?

Indeed, people do fail to budget, but you sound like you have done and worked out that paying £1000+ is worth the extra, which is why I asked to see yours, for the benefit of all.

Field cows are exactly what I want - I'm not interested in housing them and feeding them at great expense, nor do I have the time to halter train every calf. I want cattle that are calm and easily handled and can be loaded in less than ideal situations, because not every field has a loading bay. I also want them to do well off grass and turn a profit. I built my herd up from my pocket money, which meant I have had to scrimp and save all along the way. In recent years I haven't always paid top top prices, but I do tend to go home with the higher priced animals at sales, and I bid up a good proportion of the others, providing I'd be happy to have them in my herd. I rarely sell any breeding stock.

Dexters have served me well in that respect but I have seen many people along the way come & go, many of them because they simply don't know how to handle cattle and others because they overestimated how much income you can get from them.

[Jac]

Dexters have served me well in that respect but I have seen many people along the way come & go, many of them because they simply don't know how to handle cattle and others because they overestimated how much income you can get from them.

I agree with you on the second point and partially agree with the first point.

Looking after well behaved, properly trained cattle are not beyond the capabilities of novices. The problems with novices are that they sometimes don't appreciate the difference between the former and a 'field' cow and they have a misplaced belief that when they get them home they will be magically transformed. The novice then attempts to sell them at any price to get rid of them but not before they have bred more of them. That in itself is not a bad thing for experienced cattle keepers who have a well established market for their beef. Unfortunately, those types of keeper are few and far between - for sure most people can sell 'some' beef with a modicum of hard work and determination but not unlimited quantities to make a real difference.

[Jac]

I am encouraged to see the price you are asking for the weaned heifer calf on the site Saffy. I hope that you quickly find a buyer for her.

[Rob R]

As the thread that inspired this one clearly demonstrates, no matter how well trained and how highly priced, Dexters are capable of clearing fences like gazelles if they want to. They also go under and through, depending on the situation and you need more than the single strand of barbed wire that some breeds can get away with. The small size is not always an advantage.

However, all this is getting away from the original question, that of how much you are better off with a £1000 cow herd than a £500 one?

[Jac]

As the thread that inspired this one clearly demonstrates, no matter how well trained and how highly priced, Dexters are capable of clearing fences like gazelles if they want to. They also go under and through, depending on the situation and you need more than the single strand of barbed wire that some breeds can get away with. The small size is not always an advantage.

Sorry Rob I have no experience of gazelles as mine are not 'field' cows they are well fed and looked after so they have no desire to escape. My fences are also in good order so they don't walk through or under them.

If you experience this sort of anguish would you not be better off with £1,000 cows?

[Rob R]

As the thread that inspired this one clearly demonstrates, no matter how well trained and how highly priced, Dexters are capable of clearing fences like gazelles if they want to. They also go under and through, depending on the situation and you need more than the single strand of barbed wire that some breeds can get away with. The small size is not always an advantage.

Sorry Rob I have no experience of gazelles as mine are not 'field' cows they are well fed and looked after so they have no desire to escape. My fences are also in good order so they don't walk through or under them.

If you experience this sort of anguish would you not be better off with £1,000 cows?

Well no, unless escaping cows cost £20k it wouldn't be economically worthwhile. You've only identified that £1000 cows cost you more in fencing and haven't been able to pinpoint (or quantify) any economic advantages to them.

What is this 'field' cow concept? It sounds like you're now talking about poorly fed and not very well looked after animals. That might be the case (but frequently isn't among novices, who tend to over compensate with feed in my experience, and that may be why they find that the Dexter doesn't suit them, as they don't get the returns for their investment), but cattle are naturally grassland dwelling animals that thrive in fields, you don't have to keep them indoors to feed them well or look after them, the two things are mutually exclusive.

The Dexter is marketed, and rightly so IMO, as a low maintenance smallholders cow. You appear to be saying that we should be paying £500 extra for cows that don't escape, provided they are well fenced and fed. Are you therefore saying that £500 cows will escape regardless of being well fed and fenced?

I only asked you to start another thread to compare the partial budgets for the two different herd types and so far you have yet to come up with any figures at all to back up your point. It's beginning to sound like you said it without any evidence and am now avoiding the subject. You've said that £1000 cows are worth the money because people have budgetted for all their costs, but if their costs make up the majority of the £1000, it could be that a £500 cow that costs £300 is actually 'worth' more to the vendor (but the value to the purchaser remains in question).

Your saying that you'd be willing to pay £1000+ for a cow is not helping make cows worth £1000, because you're not buying them! You can say you'd pay as much as you like for a cow, but unless you actually do, it doesn't make them worth any more.

I'm genuinely interested in this as it sounds like they can pay for top notch fencing and land in addition to the finance costs on the capital outlay, so we should all be seeking to expand our herds and have much better farms as a result. If we all (us established breeders) do expand our herds and pay £1000 per female that will do no end of good to the overall average price of Dexters.

[Mark Bowles]

I still feel a bit of a novice and i have had dexters for 17 years now. I have bought and sold cows for £1000 for some time now... paid £3000 for a knightsway cow at the dispersal sale. You get what you pay for in my opinion. My cows are well bred, quiet, easy to handle,finish well on grass, have high linear scores, and are very beautiful....and you get a full backup service when they are sold, worth every penny!

[Jac]

Mark last post as overtaken me. I was about to say....

No, I haven't been able to pinpoint (or quantify) the economic advantages because not everything can be quantified in monetary terms. Take Clive's last post about the difficult calving - he called the vet out.

mainly because it was 3 a.m. and -14C in the shed and I was very tired

Your own wellbeing is priceless!

Your comments have highlighted the diversity of people keeping Dexters.

I can see your point of view if your wish to keep cattle for the sole purpose of killing them for their meat and hides then in your mind the way you are going about it is the best way forward (for you) and any other expense would be OTT.

My concept of a 'field' cow is an animal which is largely left to its own devices other than being moved from field to field or receiving winter fodder when the snow is on the ground. It may be rounded up for dosing and TB testing but nothing more than that. This does not imply that the animals are always poorly fed however, sometimes I fear that the promotion of the breed as 'thrifty' does lead to underfinished stock (hence limited market) but you certainly couldn't go into a field and put a halter on it. The majority of Society members who keep Dexter cattle (fact) have very small herds. Can one assume then, that they are not keeping them for commercial purposes? If someone is not intent on keeping something for commercial purposes then would it not be better for them to purchase an animal that is a pleasure to own and not a pain in the bum when they have to handle it?

I am sure that you can appreciate that treating cows as individuals, halter training them, preparing them for the show ring or perhaps to function as a house cow, is a time consuming business - and time has to be accounted for whether you set out to make a profit or not. Let us not forget to include in this equation breed/genetic selection and the cost of discarding the 'also rans' (hopefully with less frequency as time goes on).

I appreciate just how time consuming (and expensive) all this is and that is why I would be prepared to pay more for the right animal because I know that there are not many of them about. Mark has just admitted that he received £1,000 for a cow so there are people out there who appreciate quality, know what they want and are prepared to pay for it. Where did you see that cow advertised?

No, you cannot will the 'general' price of Dexters up that is in the hands of the individual.

[Saffy]

That is a difficult question. If it was for sale at more than £3,000 then personally I couldn't justify it to my other half.

If you have something that is well bred, good conformation, healthy, lovely temperament, proven breeder at the start of its life, halters, walks into a trailer, walks into the crush, walks in the parlour, milks adequately (doesn't kick you) then it is worth its weight in gold. This is what breeders surely are aiming for- not breeding for numbers then selling them off cheaply to a 'good home' for less than the meat value.

Jac I think I am advertising the ideal animal for you!!!

I don't think you can get a much better bred animal or better conformation than one out of the highest linear assessed female in the UK.

The herd she is from are regularly tested for IBR BVD Johne's disease and the herd are totally clear of TB, I would be delighted to test her for these things pre movement if that would put your mind at rest, she is at just the right age to train for halter etc and of a calm disposition and she is used to walking into a crush - what do you think?

Stephanie

[Jac]

That is a difficult question. If it was for sale at more than £3,000 then personally I couldn't justify it to my other half.

If you have something that is well bred, good conformation, healthy, lovely temperament, proven breeder at the start of its life, halters, walks into a trailer, walks into the crush, walks in the parlour, milks adequately (doesn't kick you) then it is worth its weight in gold. This is what breeders surely are aiming for- not breeding for numbers then selling them off cheaply to a 'good home' for less than the meat value.

Jac I think I am advertising the ideal animal for you!!!

I don't think you can get a much better bred animal or better conformation than one out of the highest linear assessed female in the UK.

The herd she is from are regularly tested for IBR BVD Johne's disease and the herd are totally clear of TB, I would be delighted to test her for these things pre movement if that would put your mind at rest, she is at just the right age to train for halter etc and of a calm disposition and she is used to walking into a crush - what do you think?

Stephanie

Now Stephanie don't start, she is a lovely heifer why an earth are you selling her?

I have looked long and hard at her and it isn't a question of money. The IBR, Lepto and BVD are not a problem as they are quickly tested for it is the Johne's that is the sticking point as you are not 'accredited' yourself I will lose my elite status. No doubt Duncan will be along shortly to advise but when I was in my second year of the health scheme I well remember having to put a young bull I purchased in isolation for eight months because of the long culture period associated with the testing for that disease and what with all the dipping and changing of clothes and problems of dung disposal it is a load of hassle plus I am really not sure that I want to re-introduce the black (long term) back into my herd of reds. I went over to AI because of the Johne's testing issues but now have a couple of red males that I shall be running on.

[Rob R]

I still feel a bit of a novice and i have had dexters for 17 years now. I have bought and sold cows for £1000 for some time now... paid £3000 for a knightsway cow at the dispersal sale. You get what you pay for in my opinion. My cows are well bred, quiet, easy to handle,finish well on grass, have high linear scores, and are very beautiful....and you get a full backup service when they are sold, worth every penny!

That may well all be true Mark, I have no reason to doubt that, and I'm not saying that a cow can't be worth £1000 or more - it pays to buy something that has the qualities you require, which may be more money if someone else wants it too. What I'm not getting is why I should pay £1000+ when the cows that do me well are £500 cows (or whatever)? Jac said to me that it is a false economy to buy a cheaper cow, yet hasn't managed to demonstrate why or how.

I have managed to buy some animals that have previously sold for more money and yet the vendors have had to sell them on for other reasons ie a high initial price tag does not necessarily mean that they won't be passed from pillar to post. I didn't pay a lot of money to establish my herd because I didn't even have an income back then, but I paid a bit more for my first animal because I agreed with the 'you get what you pay for' idea. She did alright, but not as good as good as the animal I paid considerably less for - neither were what you call 'field' cows.

I simply can't afford cows that won't stay behind an electric fence, because I don't own a lot of land & we utilise a lot of temporary fencing to manage the grazing rotationally, both at home and on the 90% rented/custom grazed. I don't agree with Jac that a halter trained animal will not jump - and she has said that it's down to having good fences, so she doesn't agree neither.

I'll have to cut this short, as I have some steers to move now & I haven't halter trained them...

[Jac]

Jac said to me that it is a false economy to buy a cheaper cow, yet hasn't managed to demonstrate why or how.

As I said it suits you to keep the cows the way you do and breed them and kill them. You do not need cattle of the type that Mark is selling for your purposes at the price he is charging. However, if Mark tried to sell for £1,000 one of his cows that was not all of the things that he said they were he simply wouldn't get his £1,000. There are many people on the site that cannot get anywhere near those prices as you have found out but that as I say, is entirely in their own hands.

Cows can jump of course they can, a good temperament is just as important as adequate fencing. I do not have steeplechasers here (halter trained or not ) and if any of my cattle did suddenly decide to fence hop, they would find themselves hanging in the cold room in double quick time because I cannot afford to sell loopy cows to anyone.

As I said, it is up to the individual as they determine the price. I wouldn't sell an animal for less money than I had paid for it and if it didn't live up to my expectations it would be hanging alongside the fence hopper in the cold room.

Hope your steer moving went OK off now to clean the butchery as I have one waiting to be cut (not a fence hopper).